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National Anomaly Committee related letter of the JCM (Staff Side)

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National Anomaly Committee related letter of the JCM (Staff Side)

Shiva Gopal Mishra
Secretary

Ph: 23382286
National Council (Staff Side)
Joint Consultative Machinery
for Central Government Employees
13-C, Ferozshah Road, New Delhi – 110001
E-Mail : nc.jcm.np@gmail.com

No.NC-JCM-2017/7th CPC Anomaly

Dated: August 23, 2017

Dear Comrades

Kindly refer to your letter requesting us to take up certain issues in the National Anomaly Committee. We, having considered the definition of the anomaly and the ambit of the NAC, taken up the issues which are placed on our website. Some of the issues brought to our notice are actually “demands” in the charter and, we have reserved the same for taking up in the Standing Committee as Agenda.

These, apart from department specific items/issues, i.e. pertaining to one single department, are to be taken up in the Departmental Anomaly committee.

If you have any objection over our decision in the matter, kindly write to us or call on us immediately. No requisition received after 30th August 2017 may be able to be considered by us.

With greetings,

Yours fraternally,
sd/-
(Shiva Gopal Mishra)
Secretary

Source: NC JCM Staff Side

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Extension of time limit for forwarding of 7th CPC-related anomalies by the Staff-Side, NC JCM and for their disposal by the National Anomaly Committee

Extension of time limit for forwarding of 7th CPC-related anomalies by the Staff-Side, NC JCM and for their disposal by the National Anomaly Committee – regarding

No.11/2/2016- JCA
Government of India
Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievances and Pensions
Department of Personnel & Training

North Block, New Delhi – 110 001
Dated: 17th July, 2017

OFFICE MEMORANDUM

Subject: Extension of time limit for forwarding of 7th CPC-related anomalies by the Staff-Side, NC JCM and for their disposal by the National Anomaly Committee – regarding

The undersigned is directed to refer to the aforementioned subject and to say that in further partial modification of this Department’s O.M. of even no.dated 5th May, 2017, it has been decided to extend the time limits for both receipt and disposal of the 7th CPC-related anomalies, as per the following details:

(i) The time limit for receipt of anomalies will stand extended by three months from 15.05.2017(as notified vide OM. referred to above) to 15.08.2017; and

(ii) The time limit for disposal of anomalies will stand extended by three months from 15.11.2017 (as notified vide QM. referred to above) to 15.02.2018.

2. This issues with the concurrence of Department of Expenditure, Ministry of Finance.

Sd/-
(D.K. Sengupta)
Deputy Secretary (JCA)

Source: [DoPT]

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7th CPC Bunching Anomaly : Denial of Bunching Increment

7th CPC Bunching Anomaly : Denial of Bunching Increment

7th CPC Bunching Anomaly : Denial of Bunching Increment due to anomlay in fixing the next stage (Cell) in each pay level with less than 35 increment rate.

Item – 2 – DENIAL OF BUNCHING INCREMENT DUE TO ANOMALY IN FIXING THE NEXT STAGE (CELL) IN EACH PAY LEVEL WITH LESS THAN 3% INCREMENT RATE.

(1) As per the Finance Ministry OM dated 07.09.2016, the grant of bunching increment is subject to the condition that the difference between the lower pay and higher pay should be at least 3%. This condition adversely affects many of the employees. Contrary to the claim of the 7th Pay Commission that increment rate of 3% is maintained, in many pay levels, the difference between lower cell and next higher cell is less than 3% showing that increment rate is less than 3%. Due to this inherent anomaly is granting justified (3%) increment the employees should not be made to suffer in the case of bunching. It is not the fault of the employees but due to faulty increment rate fixed by the commission in each pay level. This anomaly is to be set right by withdrawing the 3% condition from the Finance Ministry orders dated 01.09.2016.

(2) The pay as per the 7th CPC of MTS drawing pay of 7210 and 7430 in the pre-revised pay is bunched and fixed at Rs.19700. As per the bunching orders issued by Finance Ministry, the official drawing Rs.7430 in the pre-revised scale will get additional increment and will be fixed at Rs.20300/- with effect from 01.01.2016. But the MTS officials drawing Rs.7660/- in the pre-revised pay are also getting revised pay fixed at Rs.20300 with effect from 01.01.2016. It is requested that to remove the anomaly, the MTS officials who are drawing Rs.7660/- in the pre-revised scale may also be made eligible to get additional increment

Source: http://confederationhq.blogspot.in/

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7th CPC Pay Matrix – Anomaly in Increment Rate & Loss in increment

Agenda item No. 1 for the meeting of the National Anomaly committee sent to NC JCM by Confederation vide No. Ref: Confdn/JCM NC/Anomaly/2016-19 Dated – 03.07.2017

Item – I – ANOMALY IN INCREMENT RATE

As per clause(C) of the terms of reference of the National Anomaly Committee – where the official side and the staff side are of the opinion that any recommendations is in contravention of the principle or the policy enunciated by the Seventh Central Pay Commission itself without the commission assigning any reason – it constitutes an anomaly.

Regarding annual increment the recommendations of seventh CPC are as follows:

(i) 7th CPC Report – Highlights of Recommendations -

SL – 7 – Annual Increment – The rate of annual increment is being retained at 3 percent.

(ii) 7th CPC Report – Forword

Para 1.19 – The prevailing rate of increment is considered quite satisfactory and has been retained.

(iii) 7th CPC Report – Chapter 4.1 -Principles of Pay determination

Para- 4.1.17 – The various stages within a pay level moves upwards at the rate of 3 percent per annum.

(iv) 7th CPC Report – Chapter 5.1 – Pay Structure (Civilian Employees)

Para 5.1.38 – Annual Increment

“The rate of annual increment is being retained at 3 percent”

Para 5.1.21 – The Vertical range of each level denotes pay progress within that level. That indicates steps of annual financial progression of 3 percentage within each level.

Contrary to the above principle laid down by the 7th CPC, the actual increment rate in the Pay levels of the Pay matrix are less than 3% as illustrated in the Table below: –

ILLUSTRATION-I – LOSS IN INCREMENT

Pay Level Sl. No. in the Pay Level (Cell) Basic Pay in the Revised Pay scale Next above Basic Pay after adding 3% increment Next above Basic Pay fixed as per pay matrix Amount of loss to the employee Actual increment rate % age
1 12 24900 25647 25600 47 2.81
1 26 37600 38728 38700 28 2.92
3 9 27600 28428 28400 28 2.89
3 16 34000 35020 35000 20 2.94
4 11 34300 35329 35300 29 2.91
4 22 47500 48925 48900 25 2.94
5 10 38100 39243 39200 43 2.88
5 20 51100 52633 52600 33 2.93
6 6 41100 42333 42300 33 2.91
6 9 44900 46247 46200 47 2.89

ILLUSTRATION – 2

In Level – 2, Cell – 2, the pay is shown as 20500. After giving one increment of 3% it should be 21115/- but the next cell is only 21000 (Level-2, Cell-3). Next stage should be 21115+633=21748 but the next cell is only 21700 (Level-2 Cell-4).

In Level – 6, Cell 14 should be 50500 + 1515 = 52015 whereas it is given only 52000.

From the above it can be safely concluded that

(i) Recommendation of the Pay Commission regarding increment rate is in contravention of the principle or policy enunciated by the 7th Pay Commission, Hence it constitutes an anomaly.

(ii) In many stages, eventhough the increment is shown as 3%, it is rounded off to the next below amount causing financial loss to the employees.

(iii) In the sixth CPC, while calculating increment, if the last digit is (one) or above, it used to be rounded off to next 10 (Ten). So in this Pay Matrix also if the amount is 10 (Ten) and above, it should be rounded off to the next above 100 (hundred).

(iv) Even if the difference may look small (in percentage) it will also have long term impact on the employees promotion inviting heavy financial loss. The following illustration will reveal it.

Illustration

1. Pay Level – 6

2. Cell (Stage) in the Pay Level – 8

3. Basic Pay in the Revised Scale – 44900

4. Actual Pay after adding 3% annual increment – 46247

5. Basic Pay fixed as per the Pay Matrix – 46200

6. Loss of amount to the employee in the increment – 47

7. Pay on promotion to next Level if fixed as per serial 4 above – 49000

8. Pay on promotion to the next level, if fixed as per serial – 5 above – 47600

9. Loss per month on promotion – 1400

Thus, for a loss of Rs.47/- only in the Annual increment, the employee will suffer a recurring loss of Rs.1400/- per month during his/her promotion to the next level and this loss will have cumulative effect on rest of the period of the service career with financial loss on Dearness Allowance (DA) and further promotions and also Pensionery benefits.

The above anomalies are to be rectified.

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Extension of time limit for forwarding of 7th CPC Anomalies for consideration in the National anomaly Committee

Extension of time limit for forwarding of 7th CPC Anomalies for consideration in the National anomaly Committee

7thCPC-extension-time-limit

F.No.11/2/2016-JCA
Government of India
Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievances and Pensions
Department of Personnel & Training
Establishment (JCA Section)

North Block, New Delhi
Dated: 5th May, 2017

OFFICE MEMORANDUM

Subject: Extension of time limit for forwarding of 7th CPC Anomalies for consideration in the National anomaly Committee – regarding

The undersigned is directed to say that in partial modification of this Department’s Office Memorandum of even no. dated 16.08.2016, the time limits for receipt and disposal of anomalies, as mentioned in paragraph 5 of the Office Memorandum are amended as under:

(i) The time limit for receipt of anomalies is extended by three months from the date of expiry of receiving anomalies i.e. from 15.2.2017 to 15.5.2017; and

(ii) The time limit for disposal of anomalies is extended by three months from the date of expiry of one year from the date of its constitution i.e. from 15.08.2017 to 15.11.2017.

2. This issues with the concurrence of Department of Expenditure.

(Raju Saraswat)
Under Secretary (JCA)

DoPT Order

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Standing Committee and National Anomaly Committee after 6th CPC

Standing Committee meeting held on 25.10.2016 & ATS in respect of NAC meetings held after 6th CPC

F.No.11/1/20156-JCA
Government of India
Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievances and Pensions
Department of Personnel & Training

North Block, New Delhi
Dated the 21st February, 2017

To
Shri Shiva Gopal Mishra
Secretary,
National Council Staff-Side(JCM),
13-C, Ferozshah Road,
New Delhi.

Subject:- 1. Standing Committee meeting held on 25.10.2016- ATS reg.
2. ATS in respect of NAC meetings held after 6th CPC

Sir,

I am directed to refer to the discussion held in the Standing Committee meeting on 25.10.2016 under the Chairmanship of Secretary(P) in DoPT, and to send herewith a copy of an Action Taken Statement (ATS) in respect of 19 items on which discussion was held in that meeting. The information in respect of the other items also discussed in the same meeting will be sent upon receipt of the ATS from other Ministries/Departments which is still awaited.

2. Additionally, as discussed in the same meeting, a copy of the ATS on the items discussed in the first 4 meetings of the National Anomaly Committee (NAC) during the 6th CPC regime, and as circulated with the O.M. no. 11/1/2015-JCA dated 19.06.2015 is also being sent herewith once again for your perusal.

A regards the ATS of the two NAC meetings held on 29.05.2015 and 09.06.2015 they are being sent separately.

3. Holding the next meeting of the Standing Committee is also under consideration. It is, therefore, requested that new agenda items which the Staff-Side consider for discussion in the next meeting may be sent to the DoPT urgently.

Encl: As above

Yours faithfully,
sd/-
(D.K.Sengupta)
Deputy Secretary, JCA

Click to view the detailed report of points discussed in last 4 NAC Meetings

Source: http://confederationhq.blogspot.in/

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MACP and National Anomaly Committee Issues: Confederation

MACP and National Anomaly Committee Issues: Confederation

“VERY GOOD” BENCH MARK FOR MACP AND DENIAL OF PROMOTIONAL HEIRACHY

Eversince, the MACP scheme was introduced in 2008, confederation and the JCM staff side has been demanding promotional hierarchy instead of grade pay hierarchy. Govt, instead of considering this genuine demand, suddenly issued orders imposing “very good” bench mark condition for MACP. The JCM staffside was not even consulted. JCM staff side, secretary wrote a letter to cabinet secretary on 28-07-2016 as follows:

“The Govt. has accepted one of the adverse recommendations of 7th CPC without holding any consultation with the staff side. The recommendation of the 7th CPC regarding bench mark for performance appraisal for promotion and financial upgradation under MACPs, to be enhanced from “Good” to “very good”, has been accepted by the Govt. without considering the implication on the morale of the Central Government employees… We are of the firm opinion that Govt. should reconsider their decision on the above issues and we request you to kindly withdraw the same.”

Subsequently the case was discussed in the JCM standing committee meeting also on 25-10-2016, as an agenda item given by staff side. Inspite of all these, the Government is not ready to withdraw or modify the orders.

This shows the attitude of the BJP led NDA Govt. towards JCM staff side and Central Govt. employees.

NATIONAL ANOMALY COMMITTEE

The National Anomaly Committee was constituted on 09-09-2016. Two meetings are held to discuss the anomaly regarding calculation of Disability Pension for Defence force personnel. As per the definition of anomaly notified by the Government no genuine “anomaly” can be termed as “anomaly”. Hence the JCM staff side has demanded to modify the definition of anomaly, as defined in earlier National Anomaly Committees constituted by Govt. at the time of previous pay commissions. But till this day, Govt. has not conceded the request of the staff side.

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Agenda items for the meeting of National Anomaly Committee

Agenda items for the meeting of National Anomaly Committee

F.No.11/2/2016-JCA-I
Government of India
Ministry of Personnel, PG and Pensions
Department of Personnel & Training

North Block, New Delhi
Dated, 29 October 2016

To

Shri Shiva Gopal Mishra
Secretary
National Council Staf Side (JCM),
13-C, Ferozshah Road
New Delhi

Subject : Agenda items for the meeting of National Anomaly Committee

Sir,

I am directed to refer to O.M.No.11/2/2016- JCA dated 09.09.2016 requesting therein to send proposed items to Deputy Secretary (JCA) with a brief in triplicate and to request further to send agenda items, if any, for anomaly committee.

Yours faithfully

(D.K.Sengupta)
Deputy Secretary (JCA)

Source : Confederation

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Confederation publishes the outcome of the meeting of National Anomaly Committee and National JCA

Confederation publishes the outcome of the meeting of National Anomaly Committee and National JCA

CONFEDERATION OF CENTRAL GOVT. EMPLOYEES & WORKERS

1st Floor, North Avenue PO Building, New Delhi – 110 001
Website : www.confederationhq.blogspot.com
e-mail : confederationhq@gmail.com

President
K.K.N.Kutty
09811048303

Secretary General
M.Krishnan
09447068125

No.CONF/2015

Date : 12-06-2015

Dear Comrade,

As indicated in our last circular letter, the final meeting with the 7th CPC was held on 9.6.2015. Earlier on 8th afternoon, the Staff side had met separately to chalk out the course of negotiations. The National JCA also met on the same day. The National Anomaly Committee met on 9th June, 2015 at 3.00 pm under the Chairmanship of Joint Secretary (E) Department of Personnel at Room No. 72 North Block, New Delhi. We give hereunder a brief synopsis of the discussions at all the meetings.

1. Meeting with 7thCPC

The following Staff Side members were present at the Meeting:
Coms. M. Raghavaiah (Leader Staff Side – NFIR), Shiv Gopal Mishra (Secretary, Staff Side-AIRF), Com. Guman Singh, R.P. Bhatnagar and Com.Sharma (all from NFIR), Com. Rakhal Dasgupta, Com. J.R Bhosale (AIRF) Com. KKN Kutty, M.S. Raja and Com. M. Krishnan (from Confederation and NFPE) Com. Srikumar and Com. R.N. Pathak (from AIDEF) Com. Srinivasan and Com. Surjeet Singh ( From INDWF)

(a) Date of effect: The Chairman has made it clear that the Commission would recommend 1.1.2016 as the date of implementation of their recommendations. The Commission would finalise its report by end of August and would submit the same to the Government thereafter. They would adopt Dr. Aykroyd formula for the computation of the Minimum wage. To the specific query made by the Staff Side, the Commission said that they would factor the probable increase in the rate of retail prices of the commodities and would arrive at the minimum wage as on 1.1.2016. There had been no reply to the loss of wages to the employees due to the erosion of the real value of wages as there was no interim relief or benefit accrued from the merger of DA. These demands, therefore, stand rejected.

(b) Increase in the insurance coverage in cases of death in harness: The Staff Side recalled the assurance held out by the Commission earlier to have the actuarial assessed by an expert agency to accede to the demand of the staff side to increase the subscription and the insurance coverage. The Staff Side was of the opinion that their suggestion to share the subscription in the ratio of 3:7 was reasonable but in the absence of an expert study, the Government might not accept the same. The commission said that they would explore the possibility of such an assessment by the LIC before finalization of the report.

(c) Fitment formula. The Commission might accept the suggestion made by the Staff Side in respect of fitment formula with requisite change in the ratio on the basis of the quantum of minimum wage determined.

(d) Open ended pay scales: The Commission would recommend open ended pay scales as suggested by the Staff Side.

(e) In the matters of rate of increment, quantum of allowances etc, the Commission did not come out clearly of their thinking in the matter.

(f) Parity in pension entitlement of the past and present pensioners. The Commission is yet to make up its mind on the suggestion made by the staff side in the matter. They however said that almost all the Pensioners organizations which met the Commission had pleaded for this and the same is linked with the one rank one pension demand of the Armed forces personnel.

(g) MACP scheme: The difficulties and anomalies pointed out by the Staff Side and various other organizations have been taken note of by the Commission. The Commission assured to evolve a methodology to resolve the problem.

(h) Opposition to the induction of casual/daily rated workers and contractorisation. The Commission said that they were opposed to the unfair practice of exploitation of labour. For jobs which are of perennial and permanent character, regular workers must be recruited, the Commission added and that would obviate the need for outsourcing and contractorisation. Since most of the outsourced jobs do not require any academic qualification, the Commission was of the opinion that the revival of Group D cadre would help to address the issue. However, the Commission stated that if only the staff side sends in a communication in writing, the Commission would be able to make any recommendation in the matter. The Staff Side reiterated that they are totally opposed to outsourcing, induction of casual workers and contractorisation and the same has been made explicit in their memorandum.

(i) Parity in the pay scales between the personnel in the Central Sectt and those in the subordinate establishments.
The Commission stated that they have appreciated the stand taken by the Staff Side in the matter.
The Commission was non committal on other issues raised by the Staff Side members.

2. National Anomaly Committee meeting

The meeting was held at Room No. 72 North Block, under the Chairmanship of J.S(E) Department of Personnel and Training. In the initial remarks, the Staff side raised the following issues.

(a) Though the official side had promised to provide an action taken statement on all issues in the National Council, the same has not been supplied;

(b)No date for the National Council is indicated.

(c) No indication of the steps taken to convene the Departmental Councils. The official side had assured of the convening of the Departmental Council of the Ministry of Finance in the last meeting. However, the staff side has not been apprised of any date so far.

(d) Abnormal delay in replying to the references made to the Ministry of Finance, Department of Personnel from the Railways and other Ministries.

(e) The necessity to increase the ceiling limit of the rebate in Incometax for the allowances given to the Loco Pilots.

(f) Non-adherence to the GOI instructions by the Defence Ministry in certain matters.

The Official side stated that the Action taken Statement was almost ready but for certain comments from Certain departments. The same would be sent to the staff Side and another meeting held to discuss the course of action required on items where no agreement could be reached. The JS (per) stated that some of the references received from the Railways had been sent back to them for clarification before a final decision is taken. Regarding increase in the rebate ceiling under the Income tax Act, the matter would be referred to the revenue department and requested the staff side to appreciate that the same has to be considered in a wider perspective. Thereafter the agenda items, which had not been discussed even once were taken up.

(ii) Anomaly in the Pay Band and Grade Pay assigned to the Group B Officers of the Audit and Accounts, Incometax, , Central Excise and Customs and Postal Departments. (Agenda Item No. 1 and 8 taken together.) Despite agreeing that there existed an anomaly in the matter, the official side expressed their inability to proceed further in the matter as the Group B Gazetted Officers were beyond the ambit of the JCM scheme. However, they agreed that the Govt. would take up the issue specifically with the 7th CPC. Com.Shiv Gopal Mishra said that the Govt. must consider a JCM set up for the promote officers as their cases are not heard or discussed at any other forum. Com. Kutty said that the items were introduced as early as in 2009 and it was not correct on the part of the official sided to state that the same would be referred to the 7th CPC. Normally the Pay Commission would not entertain to consider the anomalies of the earlier Commissions. However, after some discussions, it was agreed that they would discuss the issue of audit & accounts scale (AAOs) separately after receiving a note from Staff Side and in respect of others, a note will be submitted to the 7thCPC.

(iii) Anomaly in the pay and Grade Pay of Data Processing Assistants Grade A.. The official side did not agree with the contention that the assigning of higher grade pay to certain categories of officers (7450-11500 and Grade Pay4600) was arbitrary. The Government, they added, had acted upon the recommendation of the 6th CPC. They also said that only in those cases where the pre-revised pay scales were in 6500-10500 such up-gradation had been made. In the case of DPA Grade A, they were in the pre revised scale of pay of Rs. 5500-9000.

(iv) Item No.3. Grant of Grade pay of Rs. 4200 to Lab Technicians. The official side said that the orders have been issued in the matter.

(v) Item No.4. Up-gradation of Pay Band and Grade pay of LDCs and UDCs.

The Staff Side made the following points in support of the item:

(a) The Grade pay of Rs. 1900 assigned to LDCs by the 6th CPC was without any logic and without appreciating the existing vertical relativity between Group D and LDCs and LDCs and UDCs.

(b) While creating the non functional grade in the grade pay of Rs. 4200 in the Central Secretariat, the Department of Personnel, which is the nodal department for all matters concerning the common categories, did not extend the benefit to the UDCs in the Subordinate offices.

(c) The Staff side also pointed out the Department while restructuring the cadre of stenographers in the Central Sectt. earlier, had extended the benefit to all Stenographers in the subordinate offices.

The official side stated that it was not possible for them to address the issue, whatever may be its justification in the background of the setting up of the 7th CPC. They however, assured to make a reference specifically to the Commission.

(vi) Item No.5. Senior Clerks in DMS to be assigned grade pay of Rs. 4200. The matter was stated to be sub-judice.

(vii) Item No. 6 and 12. – Removal of anomaly in the case of artisans staff of different departments & Master Craftsmen pay scale in MMS in Postal Department. The two agenda items being identical were take up together. The Staff side pointed out the glaring discrimination in the matter. They also stated that the number of employees involved is very small. On behalf of the Postal Department it was stated that the recruitment qualification in the Postal Department was VIII Standard and ITI whereas in other establishment, the academic qualification stipulated was X Standard. The Staff side contested the same pointing out that no person is entitled to be admitted to ITI without having X standard qualification. They pointed out that the merger of Artisan Grade I and Charge hand was the root cause of the problem. The official side took the stand that in any case the anomaly cannot be removed at this stage and have to wait till the 7th CPC recommendations are made.

(viii) Item No. 7. Parity in pay scales between the Central Sectt. and subordinate offices. The official side said that the up-gradation of the pay scale of Central Sectt. Assistants were on well found grounds. The Government had considered the repercussion of the said decision and therefore, the decision is not possible to be either reversed or extended to any other category of employees. They added that perhaps the 7th CPC before whom the matter is already agitated by the employees organizations of the subordinate offices might take a decision in the matter.

(ix) Item No. 9 and 10. Higher grade pay for Medical Assistants and Store keepers. The Defence Ministry was asked to submit a detailed note to the Ministry of Finance indicating the duties and responsibilities assigned as also the recruitment qualifications stipulated in the RR to enable them to reconsider the issue.

(x) Children Educational Allowance for any two children. The official side stated that the deviation made in identifying the eldest two children was consciously done taking into account the National Population policy and various other factors and is not likely to be changed. Regarding the claim for reimbursement of expenses incurred in the nursery class, as such institutions or classes are not linked to any Educational Boards, the official side said that they would look into the matter with a view to find a solution thereof.

National JCA meeting on 8th June

The National JCA which met at the Staff side office on 8th June, 2015 took note of the fact quite a few States are yet to hold the State level conventions. The meeting also noted that the strike decision taken on 28th April, 2015 has not been percolated down to the rank and file of the workers. The meeting wanted the affiliate to realize that the denial of the demand for wage revision to be effective from 1.1.2014 and the consequent denial of interim relief and the benefit of merger of DA with pay must be viewed very seriously as the said decision will have a far reaching consequence. The Government would not in future will discard the age old practice of grant of I.R. and merger of DA for ever. It has decided to appeal to all the affiliates to chalk out independent programmes of actions in the months to come and to carry out the same in all seriousness so that the employees become fully aware of the possible outcome of the 7thCPC . The Chairman and Convenor of the National JCA will get in touch with those States, where the programme has not been carried out. The meeting decided to convey to the members that the minimum wage computation, in the given situation would be on an imaginary basis. The National JCA was of the opinion that a meeting of all office bearers of the participating organizations must be convened at Delhi somewere in the month of July to chalk out the programmes of action to be pursued by theCGEs togher

It was informed at the house that both Defence and Railways would be taking their strike ballot and would be concluded in the first week of October. The meeting decided to advise the other units to chalk out progammes of action in July so that an ambience of struggle could be created. The NJCA also took note of the painful fact that despite assurances, Government was not convening the Departmental Councils and the JCM has been allowed to become defunct.

The National JCA in conclusion decided to appeal to all affiliates to take concrete steps to invigorate the joint movement of the Central Government employees and meet the challenge that is like to arise on receipt of the recommendations of the 7th CPC.by creating an atmosphere of Unity, and determination to carry out the call of indefinite strike action scheduled to commence on 23rd November, 2015..

With greetings,

Yours fraternally,
sd/-
M.Krishnan
Secretary General

Source: Confederation Blog

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Upgradation of Pay Band and Grade Pay of LDC and UDC will be discussed in NAC Meeting

Upgradation of Pay Band and Grade Pay of LDC and UDC will be discussed in National Anomaly Committee Meeting.

NAC Meeting today : Upgradation of Pay for LDC and UDC will be discussed

The Secretary, NCJCM Staff Side has already informed that a meeting NAC will be held after the final Meeting of NCJCM with 7th Pay Commission. Accordingly the DOPT is holding the National Anomaly Committee Meeting today at 3.00 PM at New Delhi. The office Memorandum issued to all Staff Side Members 0f The National Anomaly Committee stated that..

“In continuation of meeting held on 29/5/2015 the next meeting of the National Anomaly Committee is scheduled to be held under the Chairpersonship of Joint Secretary (Establishment) on 9th June, 2015 at 3.00 P.M. in the Conference Hall (Room No. 190) North Block, New Delhi. Agenda Notes for the meeting as suggested by the Staff Side are enclosed.
All the concerned are requested to kindly make it convenient to attend the meeting.”

The agenda points finalized for discussion in the NAC meeting

There are 12 Items listed in the Agenda Notes for Discussion ,

At Item Number 4 the issue of Upgradation of Pay Band and Grade Pay of LDC, UDCs and stenographers Gr.III In Subordinate offices is included for discussion. it is established in the point that LDCs may be placed in PB-i with Grade Pay of Rs.2800 and UDCs may be placed in PB-2 with Grade Pay of Rs.4200

ITEM No.4 : Upgradation of Pay Band and Grade Pay of LDC, UDCs and stenographers Gr.III In Subordinate offices.

Group ‘D’ employees have been placed in PB-I with Grade Pay Rs. 1800 and entry qualification now prescribed in Matriculation.

LDC/UDCB have been assigned the same PB-I with Grade Pay of Rs. 1900 and Rs. 2400.

Assistants and Stenographers of Central Secretariat who were in the pre revised pay scale of Rs.5500-9000 PB-2 with Grade Pay of Rs. 4200 has been granted upgraded pay scale in PB-2 with Grade Pay of Rs.4600 with retrospective effect from 1.1.2006. (0M dated 17.11.2009).

The result is that vertical relativity between Group ‘D’ and LDCs has been drastically reduced on the one hand and on the other vertical relativity between UDC sand Stenographer Gr.III of subordinate offices vis a vis the Assistants and Stenographers of Central Sectt. has been widened. In both way the relativities vis-à-vis Group D’ and LDCs and vis-à-vis UDCs/Stenographer III and Assistants have been disturbed without assigning any reasons therefore.

With a view to maintain the well established relativities it is proposed that LDCs may be placed in PB-i with Grade Pay of Rs.2800 and UDCs may be placed in PB-2 with Grade Pay of Rs.4200.

All other Agenda points of NAC Meeting

Item No. I : Anomaly In the Pay Band I Grade Pay of Gazetted Officer in prerevised Pay scale of Rs.6500-10500

Item No.2 : Anomaly in the Pay Scale of Data Proccssing Assistants Grade A

ITEM No.3 :PB-2 with Grade Pay of Rs.4200 for Lab Technicians

ITEM No.4:Upgradation of Pay Band and Grade Pay of LDC, UDCs and stenographers Gr.III in Subordinate offices.

ItemNo. 5: Grant of PB-2 Grade Pay Rs.4200 to Senior Clerks of Delhi Milk Scheme ,

Item No.6 :Removal of anomaly in the case of Artisan staff of different departments.

Item No.7 :Sub: Maintaining the horizontal parity as recommended by the 6th Central Pay Commission.

Item No. 8 :Maintaining horizontal relativity between the Section Officers of Central Sectt. And the Income tax Officers, Superintendents of Post Officers, Superintendents of Central Excise and Customs Departments.

Item No. 9 :Pay Band and Grade Pay for Medical Assistant of Ordnance factories.

Item No. 10 :Issues of Store keeping Staff

Item No.11 : Children Education Allowance – Denial thereof

Item No.12 : NOTE ON MASTER CRAFTSMAN IN MMS UNDER DEPARTMENT OF POSTS FOR DISCUSSION IN THE FAST TRACK COMMITTEE

# MERGER OF SCALES CAUSING REPEATED PROBLEMS:

Source: www.gservants.com

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NC JCM(Staff Side) has decided to meet all standing committee members before the final Meeting with 7th Pay Commission

NC JCM(Staff Side) has decided to meet all standing committee members before the final Meeting with 7th Pay Commission

NC JCM(Staff Side) has decided to meet all the standing committee members before the final Meeting with 7th Central Pay Commission will be held on 9.6.2015. And National Anomaly Committee meeting on 12 pending NAC items also expected to be held on 9th June 2015.

MEETING WITH 7TH CPC

Shiva Gopal Mishra
Secretary

National Council (Staff Side)
Joint Consultative Machinary
For Central Government Employees
13-C. Ferozshah Road. New DelhI – 110001
E Mall :nc.jcm.np@gmail.com

No.NC/JCM/7th CPC/2015

Dated: May 30, 2015

All the Standing Committee Members
of the National Council, JCM (Staff Side)

Dear Comrades,

Sub:

Final meeting of the Standing Committee of the National Council JCM (Staff Side) with the 7th Central Pay Commission will be held in the office of the Pay Commission at Delhi on 9th June 2015 at 11.00 am, an Internal Meeting of the Staff Side,NC/JCM will be held on 8th June 2015 at 15.00 hrs. in the office of National Council(JCM), 13-C, Ferozshah Road, New Delhi.

You are requested to attend both the meetings accordingly.

A copy of the letter dated 27th May 2015, received from the office of the 7th CPC, is also enclosed herewith for your ready reference.

There is every likelihood of meeting of the National Anomalies Committee on 12 pending NAC items on 9th June, 2015 (Afternoon) with the Jt. Secretary(E) and Jt. Secretary(Pers.). As soon as we get letter to this effect, we will inform you, but you should be prepared for that too.

With fraternal greetings!

Comradely yours,
(Shiva Gopal Mishra)
Secretary(Staff Side)
NC/JCM & Convener

Source: www.auditflag.blogspot.in

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Outcome of NAC Meeting held today under chairmanship of Jt. Secretary(E), DoPT

Brief on the meeting of the NAC held today under the chairmanship of Jt. Secretary(E), DoP&T, Government of India

 

Shiva Gopal Mishra
Secretary

Ph: 23382286
National Council (Staff Side)
Joint Consultative Machinery
13-C, Ferozshah Road, New Delhi – 110001
E-Mail: nc.jcm.ni@gmail.com

No.AIRF/NAC

Dated: May 29, 2015

All Constituents of the
National Council(JCM)(Staff Side),

 

Dear Comrades,

 

Sub: Brief on the meeting of the NAC held today under the chairmanship of Jt. Secretary(E), DoP&T, Government of India

 

As per notification No.11/1/2015-JCA dated 12.05.2015 of the DoP&T(Government of India), meeting of the National Anomaly Committee was held today under the Chairmanship of Jt. Secretary(Estt.), Jt. Secretary(Pers.) and officials from other establishments and Ministry of Railways were also present.

 

At the outset, Secretary(Staff Side), National Council(JCM), Shri Shiva Gopal Mishra, expressed anguish for communication gap and non-finalization of the issues raised by the Staff Side JCM at various levels, and that is the reason, the staff working in the Central Government is quite agitated.

 

He also mentioned that, when we met the Secretary, DoP&T, we were given assurance that very soon meeting of the NC/JCM would be held, but unfortunately could not.

 

NAC was formed seven years back, and up-till now whatsoever had been agreed, that is not implemented, and wherever disagreement, items have not been sent for arbitration.

 

Out of 60 items, only 48 were discussed, and most of them are under review, and there are 12 items which are still pending, require urgent meeting on pending items.

 

Leader, Staff Side, Shri M. Raghaviah also shown his anguish and demanded meetings more frequently. Shri K.K.N. Kutty, Shri Sri Kumar and other members of the Staff Side also expressed their anguish on inordinate delay.

 

The J.S.(E) assured that the meeting on the pending items would be held soon. On the insistence of the Secretary(Staff Side), she agreed for the meeting on the pending items in the afternoon of 9th June, 2015. She also agreed for giving status papers.

 

Agenda Items

 

Item No.1 – Review of MACP to GP of Rs.2000 where there is no such grade pay in Railways

Though the Official Side was not in the mood to make any change, but on the insistence of the Staff Side, they agreed to review the matter once again.

 

Item No.2 – Granting of Additional Pay to Loco & Traffic Running Staff

The Jt. Secretary(Pers.) asked the Railways to give some more logical arguments, so that they can reconsider the issue of Additional Pay to Loco Pilots and Guards of the Goods Trains.

 

Item No.3 – Treatment of employees selected under LDCE/GDCE Scheme

The Official Side informed that, they have already sent a letter on 27.09.2012, that whatsoever benefit is available to the employees selected under LDCE and GDCE in the ACP, that will continue in the MACPS also. The item is closed.

 

Item No.4 – Grant of minimum entry pay meant for Direct Recruits to Promotees

There had been lots of arguments and when the Staff Side insisted that, in the JCM Scheme, once the items have been finalized and we reach to an agreement in the Standing Committee, there is no provision of referring back the issue to JCM again. The Secretary Staff Side told pointblank to the Official Side that we are not going to yield on this issue, and if the Official Side feels that the Hon’ble Finance Minister has some specific objection for implementing this issue where Promotee should get bottom of the grade where Direct Recruitment is available, we would like our meeting with Hon’ble Finance Minister. The Official Side agreed that they will put up the case to the competent authority to approach the Hon’ble Finance Minister once again.

Comradely yours,
sd/-
(Shiva Gopal Mishra)
Secretary (Staff Side)
NC/JCM & Convener

Source: Confederation

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National Anomaly Committee Meeting will be held on 29.5.2015 – Dopt order with Agenda Points

National Anomaly Committee Meeting will be held on 29.5.2015 – Agenda Points

NFIR published the order issued by the DoPT to convene a meeting of National Anomaly Committee on 29th May 2015 and also attached agenda points…

No.11/1/2015-JCA
Government India
Ministry of Personnel, PG & Pensions
Department of Personnel & Training

North Block, New Delhi
Dated: 12th May, 2015

OFFICE MEMORANDUM

Subject: Meeting of the National Anomaly Committee – 29th May, 2015 at 3.00 P.M.

The undersigned is directed to say that a meeting to discuss the items which were discussed in the last National Anomaly Committee Meeting held on
17.07.2012 and required separate examination (as annexed) is scheduled to be held under the Chairpersonship of Joint Secretary (E) on 29th May, 2015 at 15.00 Hrs in Room No.119, North Block, New Delhi.

2. It is requested to kindly make it convenient to attend the meeting.

sd/-
(A.Asholi Chalai)
Director(JCA)
Tel/Fax: 011-23094906

Distribution:
ALL STAFF SIDE MEMBERS OF THE NATIONAL ANOMALY COMMITTEE. (List attached).

1. Secretary, Staff Side Council (JCM), 13-C, Ferozeshah Road, New Delhi

2. General Secretary, AIRF, 4 State Entry Road, New Delhi.

3. General Secretary, NFIR, 3, Chemsford Road. New Delhi.

AGENDA FOR THE ANOMALY COMMITTEE MEETING SCHEDULED TO BE HELD ON 29.5.2015.

ITEM No.1

Review of MACP to Grade pay of Rs. 2000/- where there is no such grade
pay in Railway.

ITEM No. 2

Additional Pay to Loco & Traffic running Staff.

ITEM No. 3

Teatment of employees selected under LDCE SCheme / GDCE Scheme

ITEM No. 4.

Grant of minimum entry pay meant direct recruit to promotes.

Source: NFIR

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JCM, National Council, Staff Side is organizing a National Convention on 11.12.2014

JCM, National Council, Staff Side is organizing a National Convention on 11.12.2014

UNITED MOVEMENT OF CENTRAL GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES
NATIONAL CONVENTION OF JCM
NATIONAL COUNCIL STAFF SIDE
ON 11TH DECEMBER 2014

JCM, National Council, Staff Side organizations will be organizing a National Convention of all Central Government Employees at New Delhi on 11.12.2014. Railway, Defence & Confederation will participate in the convention. Convention will declare future course of action. DA merger, Interim Relief, Date of effect of 7th CPC inclusion of GDS under 7th CPC etc are the main demands.

M. Krishnan
Secretary General
Confederation of Central
Government & Employees
Mob: – 09447068125
Email: – mkrishnan6854@gmail.com

Source: http://confederationhq.blogspot.in/

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List of Participants in the NAC and MACP meeting from Staff and Official Side

List of Participants in the NAC and MACP meeting from Staff and Official Side

 

Name list of the participants in the NAC and MACP meeting from Staff and Official Side has been listed in the Annexure II and Annexure VI of official minutes. We are reproducing the name list here…

List of Participants in the Fourth Meeting of the National Anomaly Committee held on 17th July,  2012  at 3.00 PM in Room No. 119, North Block, New Delhi. 

CHAIRPERSON  Shri. P K Misra, Secretary (Personnel) 

OFFICIAL SIDE  
1. Mamta Kundra JS (E), DoPT
2. Madhulika P. Sukul, JS(Pers), M/o Finance
3. P.K.Sharma, AM(Staff),M/o Railways
4. Prashant Mishra, ED/PC, M/o Railways
5. Neera Khuntia , ED/PC II, M/o Railways
6. V.P.Singh, DDG(Estt), D/O Post
7. Surender Kumar, ADG(PCC) D/Post
8. Kamlesh Kumar Tripathi, D/o  Telecommunications
9. R.Magadewan ADG(B&A) D/o Posts
10.  K.K. Mittal, Director, D/o P&PW
11. Harjit Singh, US,D/o P&PW
12. S.P.Kakkar, US(Administration), D/o P&PW
13. D.K.Solanki,U.S. D/o Pension & P.W
14. M.C.Worthing, Defence(AG), M/o Defence
15. Renu Jain, Director, D/o Expenditure
16. Mukta Goel, Director(Estt.I), DoPT
17. Mukesh Chaturvedi, DS(Pay), DoPT
18. Ashok Kumar, DS (JCA), DoPT
19  P.Behera S.O.(M/o Defence/Fin./AG)


STAFF SIDE 
1. M.Raghavaia
2. Umraomal Purohit
3. Shiva Copal Mishra
4. Rakhal Das Gupta
5. S.K.Vyas
6. C. Srikumar
7. Ch.Sankara Rao
8. Guman Singh
9. R.P.Bhatnagar
10. R.Srinivasan
11. K.K.N.Kutty
12. J.R.Bhosle
13. M.S.Raja

List of Participants in the Fourth Meeting of the MACP held on 27th July,  2012  at 10.00 AM in Room No. 190, North Block, New Delhi.

Official Side 
Ms. Mamta Kundra, Joint Secretary (E), DOPT  In Chair
Ms. Mudhulika P. Sukla, JS (Pers.), Dept. of Expenditure
Shri Prashant Mishra, ED, M/o Railway
Ms. Mukta Goel, Director (E-I), DOPT
Ms. Renu Jain, Dir. (DOE), Deptt. of Expenditure
Ashok Kumar, DS (JCA). DOPT

Staff Side 
Sh. M. Raghavaiah – Leader, Staff Side
Sh. Umraomal Purohit – Secretary,  Staff Side
Sh. S.K.Vyas
Sh. Shiva Gopal Mishra
Sh. C.Srikumar
Sh. K.K.N.Kutty
Sh J.R.Bhosale

Source: www.persmin.nic.in
[http://circulars.nic.in/WriteReadData/CircularPortal/D2/D02est/11_2_2008-JCA-13092012.pdf]

Be the first to comment - What do you think?  Posted by admin - September 14, 2012 at 4:29 pm

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5th National Anomaly Committee meeting minutes published by DoPT

5th National Anomaly Committee meeting minutes published by DoPT

 

Department of Personnel and Training has issued official minutes of 5th National Anomaly Committee meeting held on 17.7.2012.

DOPT published the detailed official minutes of the 4th National Anomaly Committee Meeting, which was held on 5th January, 2012 today on its official website and also the summary record of discussions of the meeting held on 27th July, 2012 with the Staff Side on the issues relating to Modified Assured Career Progression Scheme (MACPS). The detailed report of the discussions and decisions on agenda items with the Staff Side members. The minutes of the meeting was given in four parts as follows…

Annexure – I : Summary Record of Discussions of the 4th meeting of the National Anomaly Committee held on 5.1.2012 

Annexure – II : List of Participants in the Fourth Meeting of the National Anomaly Committee held on 17th July,  2012.

Annexure – III : Summary Record of discussions of the meeting held on 27th July, 2012 with the Staff Side on the issues relating to Modified Assured Career Progression Scheme (MACPS). 

Annexure – VI : List of participants in the meeting on MACP held on 27th July, 2012.

Be the first to comment - What do you think?  Posted by admin - at 2:37 am

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National Anomaly Committee Meeting Minutes issued by DOPT

National Anomaly Committee Meeting Minutes issued by DOPT

 

National Anomaly Committee Meeting Minutes issued by DOPT

Department of Personnel and Training has issued detailed minutes with agenda items of the meeting of National Anomaly Committee held on 17th July, 2012.

Click the link to view the order…

Be the first to comment - What do you think?  Posted by admin - September 13, 2012 at 4:19 pm

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Decisions and Discussions : National Anomaly Committee Meeting held on 17.7.2012

Decisions and Discussions : National Anomaly Committee Meeting held on 17.7.2012
Highlights of discussions in the National Anomaly Committee Meeting held on 17th July, 2012
NFIR General Secretary Shri.Raghavaiah JCM Staff Side Leader, published the outcome of discussion on some important issues on its website. 
1. Special Allowance and Qualification Pay : The demand for taking special allowance and qualification pay for fixation prupose on promotion w.e.f.1.1.2006 is agreed to be considered and finalized within one month.
2. Rule 8 of Revised Pay Rules : It was agreed that taking into considereation, Recruitment Rules the Senior promotee’s pay will be allowed to be fixed at the same stage (especially at the minimum of pay) thus the seniors will get the entry stage pay fixed for direct recruits.
3. Transport Allowance : Since CCA got subsumed in the Transport Allowance resulting denial of Overtime, action will be taken to review this particular aspects to mitigate the hardship.

4. Revision of Existing Allowance : Agreed to process the dobling the allowances (Hospital Patient Care Allowance etc.) Cabinet’s approval will be sought. Target date for finalization is one month.
5. Commutation of additional Pension or Revision of pension in respect of post 31.12.2005 retirees : Department of Pension to make calculation for knowing the difference of amount between pre1.1.2006 and post 1.1.2006. Thereafter a view will be taken.
6. Commutation of Revised Pension : Will be examined further. Copy of Supreme Court Judgement will be given to Staff Side.
7. Revision of Base Index for Dearness allowance : Calculation sheet will be sent to Staff Side for comments.
8. Fixation of pay on promotion (shouldering higher responsibility) to a post carrying same Grade pay : Agreed to grant additional increment erstwhile FR-22-C.
9. Anomaly in the Pay Scale, Pay Band and Grade Pay – Library Information Assistant : Will be referred to Department of Culture for comments for considering allotment of Grade Pay of Rs.4600/- in PB-2.
10. MACP Anomalies : Secretary (Personnel) while appreciating the points raised by Staff Side has decided that a separte meeting will be held shortly (tentative date 27th July, 2012).
11. 15 Years Period fixed for Commutation is Arbitrary/unjustified : Official Side stated that the issue will be examined further.
12. Anomalies in the Pay Scale of Official Language Staff – Grant of parity to Rajbhasha Sahayaks : Railway Ministry’s proposal for granting parity is under active consideration Favourale decision is expected.
13. Grant of parity in the case of Indian Railways Stenographers : Staff Side insisted that int he light of  Cabinet’s approval for granting parity, the Railway Ministry should issue orders without referring to Minisry of Finance. It was however stated by the Official Side that this being a common category, Ministry of  Finance will have to be approached by Railway Ministry. After discussion it was agreed to expedite decision.
14. Eleven additional Items given by Staff Side in the last meeting will be proritized for further examination ad discussion.
15. Replacement of Grade Pay of Rs.4600/- with Rs.4800/- in the Railways : Official Side stated that Railway Ministry’s proposal will be considered and a decision given.
16. Transport Allowance at Delhi for employees fo Faridabad, Gurgaon, Ghaziabad and Noida : After discussion it was agreed to consider positively. Staff Side also pointed out that HRA at Delhi rates are already paid to staff and hence Transport Allowance at Delhi rates should be allowed.
17. Grant of another option to the employees promoted in between 1.1.2006 and 2010 : Staff Side pointed out that the Field staff who were promoted after 1.1.2006 were unaware of the advantage of option as they were in the 5th CPC Pay Structure till the implementation of 6th CPC Revised Pay Structure and hence another option should be granted in such situation. After lengthy discussion, Secretary (Personnel) has agreed that thre is hardship involved and assured to decide favourably.
Shri. M.Raghavaiah, JCM Staff Side leader, Guman Singh, NFIR President and R.P.Bhatnagar, Working President, NFIR have participated in the meeting.

Be the first to comment - What do you think?  Posted by admin - July 19, 2012 at 8:09 am

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MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ANOMALY COMMITTEE – 17TH JULY, 2012 AT 3.00 PM

MEETING OF THE NATIONAL ANOMALY COMMITTEE – 17TH JULY, 2012 AT 3.00 PM

No.11/2/2008-JCA
Government of India
Ministry of Personnel, PG & Pensions
Department of Personnel & Training
North Block, New Delhi,

Dated, the 18th June, 2012
OFFICE MEMORANDUM

Subject: Meeting of the National Anomaly Committee – 17TH JULY, 2012 AT 3.00 PM

The undersigned is directed to refer to OM of even number dated 2nd December, 2011 regarding the 4th meeting of the National Anomaly Committee which was held on 5th January, 2012. All the Agenda Items placed before it could not be discussed and the meeting had to be adjourned. This meeting will now be held in Committee Room No.119, North Block, New Delhi on 17th July, 2012 at 3.00 PM.

It is requested that you may kindly make it convenient to attend this meeting and also kindly confirm your participation urgently. Agenda Notes for the meeting will remain the same as were circulated earlier vide this Ministry’s OM of even number dated 16th December, 2011.

sd/-
(Ashok Kumar)
Deputy Secretary to the Govt. of India

Be the first to comment - What do you think?  Posted by admin - June 25, 2012 at 4:30 am

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Date of Next National Anomaly Committee Meeting is 17th July 2012

Date of Next National Anomaly Committee Meeting is 17th July 2012.We have reproduced and given below the office memorandum published by the AIRF for your consideration.


No.11/2/2008-JCA
Government of India
Ministry of Personnel, PG & Pensions
Department of Personnel & Training

 

North Block, New Delhi,
Dated, the 18th June, 2012

 

OFFICE MEMORANDUM

Subject : Meeting of the National Anomaly Committee – 17th July, 2012 at 3.00 PM

The undersigned is directed to refer to OM of even number dated 2nd December, 2011 regarding the 4th meeting of the National Anomaly Committee which was held on 5th January, 2012. All the Agenda Items placed before it could not be discussed and the meeting had to be adjourned. This meeting will now be held in Committee Room No.119, North Block, New Delhi on 17th July, 2012 at 3.00 PM.

It is requested that you may kindly make it convenient to attend this meeting and also kindly confirm your participation urgently. Agenda Notes for the meeting will remain the same as were circulated earlier vide this Ministry’s OM of even number dated 16th December, 2011.

 

sd/-
(Ashok Kumar)
Deputy Secretary to the Govt. of India
Phone :011-23092589
Email : ashok.kalra@nic.in

Distribution

All Official and Staff side members of the National Anomaly Committee

Be the first to comment - What do you think?  Posted by admin - June 23, 2012 at 1:06 pm

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